I have been asked, recently and otherwise, why I bother commenting at blogs such as, specifically, FMH, since I don't agree with everything they are about. I thought it a very good question, since commenting there and places like FMH usually accomplishes little besides opening me up to pigeonholing and ridicule. In thinking about it, I've come up with three main reasons which I think worth sharing. I just hope they aren't self-righteous.
I can learn more from people I disagree with than I can from those with whom I agree. Even when said people vilify and pigeonhole me, I don't hate them for it. I admit to being hurt by it (sometimes more than I wish I were), but at the same time I can understand why they do that. In the end, they are (generally speaking) hurting in some way and by trying to represent established doctrinal and conservative stances, I align myself with those they perceive as enemies. I'm gradually getting better at not seeing them as enemies in return. Blogging has taught me a lot about how to disagree with someone while loving and caring about them and how to express my opinion without taking it personally when others mock that opinion. I wouldn't have learned that by clumping up with buddies.
I was essentially stereotypically feminist once, too, so part of me still identifies with that group. No one would really believe it of me now, but I was once all about career. Marriage and children, if they happened, were to be limited. There was no way I was going to stay home with the kids and allow myself to be so restricted in my sphere. I even had a rather bad mouth on me. Needless to say, I've done a lot of humbling and changing since then. Regardless, I have been where many of them are now and I am where I am now, and having seen what both sides have to offer and chosen my preferred path, I want to share my experiences and journey. It has been a hard road, but it has been a glorious one. My vistas have been opened beyond my ability to express. My heart has been filled with joy and thanksgiving. All the niggling doubts and insecurities have been lightened. All the bitterness I once had has been softened. It is so wonderful, I want to share it, even if no one listens or cares. Even if they hate me for it. In some small way, I suppose this is similar to how Christ must feel. Even if not one of us takes Him up on His offer of redemption, I believe He would have done it anyways, just to give us the chance.
I feel drawn by the Spirit to comment there more often than elsewhere. I won't claim to pure spiritual inspiration when I comment. I often say things ham-handedly and awkwardly. I'm like any other person. I get my feelings hurt and say things I wish I hadn't. I hurt others' feelings and agonize for days over it. I struggle with my words and get frustrated with my inability to communicate. But I try my hardest to only comment when I feel moved upon by the Spirit. I seem mostly to feel moved when I see someone hurting or struggling with something and know I have some understanding to share. Many of the people on those blogs are working their ways through things I have worked through, or things I am working through. I benefit when I shine the light of their understanding on my problems and hope (against all evidence) they will benefit from mine. Perhaps that is hubris, I don't know, but it's the best I know how to do. Despite rarely, if ever, having positive things said to me there, I am not there to be back-scratched. I am there to learn.
So, that's it. I know I'm not welcome, but I go anyways because I feel the benefits validate the detriments. It may be that some day I will be led elsewhere, but for now I'm trying my best to "go where [He] want[s] me to go," no matter the cost.
I was essentially stereotypically feminist once, too, so part of me still identifies with that group. No one would really believe it of me now, but I was once all about career. Marriage and children, if they happened, were to be limited. There was no way I was going to stay home with the kids and allow myself to be so restricted in my sphere. I even had a rather bad mouth on me.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think that either choice is "more" feminist than the other? Feminism is all about women having the right to choose career , motherhood, or a combination of the two.
Theoretically, Renee, I agree with you. In application, however, the truth seems to be that feminists believe all women should have the right to choose, so long as it is a choice they would make. This becomes quickly obvious as soon as a woman makes a choice for herself that does not follow the popular line of reasoning. Any choice that does not agree with feminist choices can only be because the woman in question is brainwashed. Most feminists would claim to be tolerant, but the proof is in the pudding. I am speaking generally, of course, not of any specific feminists. I'm sure it would be possible to find exceptions to the rule.
ReplyDeleteThere is an increasing gap growing between those who truly believe in the glory and beauty of womanhood, and those who attempt to bury it by replacing those beautiful qualities of womanhood with those of manhood. I simply cannot agree with a group of people who tell me that in order to be happy with who I am, I must be like a man. I am not a man, nor am I interested in a man's brand of power and prestige. I am a woman, and happy to be one.
See, and I was once convinced that it was my proper role and duty to be a stay at home mom and that that was what would make me truly happiest . . .
ReplyDeleteI was that girl in seminary who chastised that girl who questioned why women couldn't have the priesthood. I was that perfect Mormon girl, laurel president, seminary vice president, scripture chaser extraordinaire, Personal Progress champion, destined to live out my Divine Nature as Homemaker and Mother.
It goes both ways. You aren't more highly evolved for now discounting feminism, and I'm not more highly evolved for now embracing it.
Life happens, in a myriad of ways, and it brings out the best in us and it brings out the worst in us and it changes us fundamentally.
But FWIW, I always appreciate seeing your comments at fMh.
BTW, I find it a bit disingenous that you continually and constantly make assumptions and speak for feminists, when I am sure you would be very offended if I took it upon myself to speak for Mormon women with a more "traditional" gender view.
ReplyDeleteBut hey, if you're going to say you wouldn't be the least bit insulted, I can go ahead and make some judgemental and self-righteous statements of my own about women like you. Perhaps: "Most Mormon women with a more "traditional" view of gender claim to be tolerant, but the proof is in the pudding" or "In application, the truth seems to be that more "traditional" women should have the right o choose, so long as it is a choice they would make."
Hmmmm, kind of annoying, isn't it?
"In application, the truth seems to be that more "traditional" women should have the right o choose, so long as it is a choice they would make." was of course supposed to be - "In application the truth seems to be that more "traditional" women believe all women should have the right to choose, so long as it is a choice they would make."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you got it. But I'd hate for a simple typo to be used against me.
'Cause, after all, I'm just your stereotypical feminist, which of course means I'm angry and I've got a persecution complex. Or maybe that's "traditional" women again? Gee, I get so mixed up sometimes . . .
Quimby - I can understand that statements such as the ones you quoted can be quite irritating. I think you might not realize how often we "traditional" women are inundated with just the sorts of comments you tried to aim back. I have already had to develop a tougher skin to accept them, sometimes without comment. Of course, it usually takes the form of "traditional women are brainwashed" or "all you traditional women do is blindly parrot back words of the prophets and scripture" or even dismissed with "you're only saying that because you're a traditional woman."
ReplyDeleteMy comments in this post held rather more vitriol than I like to express, but I'm sure you understand why that might be. I am frustrated with the false dichotomy of feminists and traditionals. I am frustrated with the seeming obsession of supposedly faithful members continually degrading, criticizing and ridiculing men I love who have dedicated their lives to something I hold more important and dear than any other thing. I feel unable to share what I feel and know in my heart without insulting the very people I'm wanting to bond with. I am weary of being told that by doing what makes me happy, I'm somehow less than those who disagree with me. I am well aware some of these feelings fall on both sides of the fence. I am very aware that it goes both ways, which is why I generally (and even in this impassioned declaration) try to use qualifying language to give others room to disagree with my feelings and observations. I would appreciate a return of that courtesy in typical feminist language.
I believe I am more evolved than I once was because I am no longer obsessed with looking for insult in every casual encounter. I no longer worry about my place in society, because I have a healthier understanding of my worth and that it is independent of what others think. I have no interest in judging whether or not you are more "evolved". That is between you and God, and you don't need to convince me, nor do I concern myself with it. I believe that it is highly probable you are as "evolved" as I in your path back to God, even if I disagree with your concerns and opinions.
I am grateful that you appreciate my paltry contributions. You may or may not have observed that I don't get involved as much as I once did. I have no stomach for bickering any more. I have no faith that it does any good. I am frustrated and venting here, and am more than willing to own up to it. I apologize for my disingenuity in seeming to presume to speak for feminists and for any insult that launched at you. I can only share how I feel, and show you that I do try to use words such as "typical" and "most" to acknowledge that not all who call themselves feminists act this way. I do, however, find it similarly disingenuous that you would come here and deride me for indulging in the same brand of frustration with feminists that they so endlessly express towards patriarchy, the Church and me. I think it likely that people forget that the patriarchy and the Church are nearly entirely represented by good men trying to do the right thing and follow God, that care very deeply about the welfare of all of God's children, whatever their creed, gender, or country, who honor and cherish their wives and children, who have sacrificed much for their sincere and loving faith. They are people, just like we are people. Is it not possible that the Bloggernacle's constant stream of venom and criticism hurts them, as well?
Perhaps not, as they are grounded in a relationship with their Savior. But I know they are more intimately aware of the criticism than we might think.
SilverRain, what I take offense at is your incredible arrogance, self-righteousness, and judgemental attitude towards a larger movement for which you show an amazing lack of ignorance - categorizing all women as "career first, children not at all", for instance, when many leading and prominent feminists are mothers, or saying that feminists want to turn you into a man, when that is a very narrow, specific strain of feminism that most feminists now discount.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to diss feminists, at least have a solid knowledge of the movement - don't dabble in stereotypes.
And again you reiterate that old complaint that feminists are men-haters and the implication that feminists want superiority to men. Haven't we been through that before? Or do you really want to get into that again?
Educate yourself about feminism before you make damning, ignorant, arrogant, self-righteous, judgemental statements about the movement. Is that too much to ask?
In meantime, until you actually have a clue what you're talking about, please refrain from being judgemental, please refrain from implying that feminism is a stage that must be worked through before we all emerge happily content with "traditional" gender roles on the other side, and please refrain from making broad generalisations that are based on nothing more than fairy dust.
"I can only share how I feel, and show you that I do try to use words such as "typical" and "most" to acknowledge that not all who call themselves feminists act this way."
ReplyDeleteAnd that makes it all better doesn't it? "Most black men are appalling fathers" is so much better than "Black men are appalling fathers," and "The typical war is started by Jews" is so much nicer than "Wars are started by Jews." I can see a world of difference! Why, thank you for being so kind!
"I do, however, find it similarly disingenuous that you would come here and deride me for indulging in the same brand of frustration with feminists that they so endlessly express towards patriarchy, the Church and me."
Well, I came here following a link on that horrible, satanic feminist website you bashed so thoroughly here. So if you don't want me finding it, stop putting up your link. Easy peasy.
And at least my frustration is based on something more substantial than thin air. At least I am a Mormon - thus entitled to speak out on the patriarchy of the Mormon church - unlike you, who happily claims the title "ex-feminist" and thinks that gives you all the reason in the world to rant against a movement that you were really never a part of anyway, judgin g by the tremondous lack of knowledge you have of the history, causes, and traditions ofthe movement.
Forgive me if this is the best analogy I can come up with at 6:30 in the morning, but it'd be a bit like if I was a goblin pretending to be a muggle who was now firmly anti-muggle. My knowledge of the muggle world would surely give me away, just as your knowledge of the feminist movement is bloody well enough to give you away.
Quimby - You come here, guns a-blazing, throwing around red herrings and labels, without truly trying to understand or even gently instruct. If I am ignorant, at least I am trying to learn. If I know nothing about the feminist movement, at least I read feminist blogs and articles and refrain from personal attacks on them in an attempt to educate myself. For what it's worth, I'm still trying to find a group of feminists who are intelligent and secure enough in their opinions to discuss things calmly with me. It is impossible to learn when the person who is supposedly so much more educated on the matter cannot find time away from insult-throwing to help educate me. It is encounters with self-proclaimed feminists such as you which serve only to uphold my low opinion of feminism as a general rule, however much I might love and care for certain individuals within the group.
ReplyDeleteI have just as much privilege to share my opinions here as you do on your own blog. I will continue to point out those things I have seen in feminist movements or society which I do not agree with. You and yours certainly don't seem to have any compunction denigrating the men and establishment I love and honor. If you disagree with any of my opinions, I welcome discussion and education on the matter with open arms. I will not, however, continue to indulge comments which contain little more than temper tantrums and groundless attacks. I hope you will comment here when you have calmed down, but any further comments such as the ones you have recently shared will be deleted.
Although I strongly dislike blocking or deleting comments, hoping for open discussion, I do not need to submit myself or my readers to abuse, simply because you disagree with me.
Quimby - I have deleted your comments because they continue to be belligerent and needlessly inflammatory. If you only knew how hard it is for me to react this way, perhaps you would give me a little more credit, but after seeking advice from several people of different creeds and outlooks, it is the only agreeable solution I can find to answer the quandary you have put me in. I am sorry it has to be this way. As I said before, I welcome your comments when they are less enraged and insulting. I value your friendship and the times we manage to speak civilly to each other, and it brings me no joy to see it strained in this manner.
ReplyDeleteJendoop - I appreciate your support, and thank you. I removed your comment only because it related to other comments I had to remove. As they like to say, let us not feed the trolls. I'd like to get back to our regularly scheduled programming!
SilverRain, Completely understand. Looking forward to your next insightful post. :)
ReplyDeleteafter taking full consideration into your views i doubt you truly wish to "learn" from these experiences imho anyway, i feel further self examination may be needed.
ReplyDelete